Curse

fusa · Apr 09, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

It's been downplayed before (Gaile said something along the lines of "...we wouldn't look at a drunkard-bot in the same way as we would a full-on farm bot" - paraphrase, not an exact quote) - but since then, things have gradually got stricter. All you gwx2 users should be cautious too, a clampdown is suspected to be coming...

So where does she say this? If you're referring to http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_..._ask_something then if you read it she says the opposite, that they do not ban for GWx2 or using two accounts at the same time.

Sir Baddock · Apr 09, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

This is what I was told by support relating to Logitech G15 Keyboards

Quote:

Hello [Blank],

You asked if your new programmable keyboard was acceptable to use for playing Guild Wars. “What if…?” questions such as this are always tough to answer, because they have not happened yet. Nevertheless, I’ll try to give you an understanding of what we might consider “right” and “wrong” when interacting with our service as it related to your new keyboard.

Using your programmable keyboard as a normal keyboard would certainly be fine. A keyboard is a basic tool that is virtually required to operate a computer and use our service. Each time you press a key, one character is typed or one action is made to happen and, in general, that is acceptable.

If you were somehow able to use your programmable keyboard to somewhat automate your gameplay experience, especially to the point where you did not have to attend your computer while your keyboard software “played” the game for you, then that would be considered against our User Agreement and subject to disciplinary action. (“You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input.”)

Somewhere in between those two scenarios is a grey area. We can’t make any “final judgments” on any grey area actions that have not yet occurred, and we will not speculate on all possible grey area scenarios and their outcomes. In general, please make sure that you are at your computer and playing your game. Ultimately, it is of utmost important to us that each character being played in Guild Wars is being operated by an actual person.

We know this doesn’t provide a definitive rule that covered all possible scenarios, but still hope this helps your understanding of “helping one play” versus “playing for you” and what we would consider acceptable.

Regards,
GM ApplePython
The Guild Wars Support Team

Eragon Zarroc · Apr 09, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

so basicly, anything that would not require for the player to actually be at the keyboard playing the game is bannable. keys for emotes and the like require the player to be active, therefore do not fall under the ability of being banned. automated movements and actions, not so much.

Sir Baddock · Apr 09, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Forgot to add something, using a Logitech G15's macro keys to press two buttons at once (Such as Space + , or Space + F1) clearly is an advantage as you're only pressing one button while other players need to push two.

Quote:

or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive

I sure hope Guild Wars 2 has OFFICIAL Logitech G15 support, for now I'm stuck with my $100+ dollar keyboard with special features that I never get to use in my favorite games.

Archress Shayleigh · Apr 09, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

You may not make the macro do a few actions- that's like botting. if that was allowed you could press a button and say, solo UW without doing anything.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 09, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

hrmz so why did i even bother to buy a g15? gdi, and i don't even know how to use it yet.

I am glad to hear you say that as I still haven't figured it out yet. I do like the lighted keyboard so I can play with the lights out.

BlueNovember · Apr 09, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

The dual-clienting isn't used to actually farm anything - it's just used, as you said, to transfer all the goodies onto one account.

Mmmm.

Pre-nerf Kurzick HFFF leaching
Luxon The Jade Arena recall faction farming
Polar bear farming (1 account runs, 7 accounts afk but still get quest reward)
Keg-farming using accounts as mobile storage to increase amount of time you can stay zone popping

I'd say there's a few uses, but yes, mostly people just use them for mule management.

Quote:

That's nothing that couldn't be done with two PCs side by side.

True, and the farming could be done that way also.
--

Back ontopic; OP, explain the exact scripting you were doing in a support ticket to Anet. If you were not being abusive, then anet should be able to verify and unban you.
Either way there's not much we can do to help here.

(/me runs off to spread the use of the phrase "zone popping")

Snograt · Apr 09, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusa

So where does she say this? If you're referring to http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_..._ask_something then if you read it she says the opposite, that they do not ban for GWx2 or using two accounts at the same time.

Yep, you're absolutely correct and I withdraw my previous scare-mongering statements re gwx2.

Phew...

gremlin · Apr 09, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Its always going to be a grey area and Anet probably judge each case on its own merits as and when they happen.

Being able to touch type is a game advantage, I nearly always have to look down at the keyboard they do not.

At the other end of the scale would be someone with a physical disability in such cases macros would enable them to compete on a more level playing field.

AFK botting I am totally against, anything else macros included I have no objection to.
There will always be players with an advantage in a game compared to others and its up to each player to do the best they can.

for instance a team of players using voip or even in the same room as each other will usually be more effective than a team not so blessed.

micosay · Apr 09, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

[*]Polar bear farming (1 account runs, 7 accounts afk but still get quest reward)

erm...
Straight to the Heart & The Strength of Snow (only places where polar bear drops) are both solo quests...

Siirius Black · Apr 09, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

wow I use my two accounts with my 600.

BlueNovember · Apr 09, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by micosay

erm...
Straight to the Heart & The Strength of Snow (only places where polar bear drops) are both solo quests...

o0 interesting. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere... d'oh. Shows how much I know about pve =).
Thanks for the correction.
Still, the general point stands; you can still run 8 copies of gw on one pc and have 7 accounts afk whilst one runs somewhere. I'm sure there's many quests where this is possible.

Nereyda Shoaal · Apr 09, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Nerfing GWx2 is not solving anything
It's 2009 not 1989. Nowadays most people have 2, 3 even 4 computers at home

mazza558 · Apr 09, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Hang on, can't you basically play through normal-mode with a good hero team whilst afk for the most part?

You can just keep coming back to click to the next mob, etc...

Haxor · Apr 09, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

o0 interesting. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere... d'oh. Shows how much I know about pve =).
Thanks for the correction.
Still, the general point stands; you can still run 8 copies of gw on one pc and have 7 accounts afk whilst one runs somewhere. I'm sure there's many quests where this is possible.

You're probably referring to the following "polar bear farm" technique:

1. Start up multiple accounts with chars in LA or Kamadan
2. Start quest on account #1 and run to the end. Stand near the door at the very end of the room.
3. Start quest on account #2 and run to the end. Stand near the door, just like with account #1.
3. Repeat with anywhere between 0 and 4 or so accounts.
4. By the time you placed the last one at the end of the quest, the constantly respawning freezie & co have killed all the grentches for account #1.
5. Get reward, re-run account #1 to the end of the dungeon.

And so-on.

Either way, what seems to be the problem with the G15 is that multiple actions converged in to one keystroke basically counts as "botting". The way I interpret it is as follows:

Case 1:
Mapping /laugh to a key. This is a single command, just mapped to a key. Should be allowed.

Case 2:
Mapping skill 1, 2 and 3 to a key, so they'll be activated miliseconds after each other. These are multiple commands, mapped to a single key. Probably not allowed.

MisterB · Apr 09, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Baddock

Forgot to add something, using a Logitech G15's macro keys to press two buttons at once (Such as Space + , or Space + F1) clearly is an advantage as you're only pressing one button while other players need to push two.

Please explain the difference between your example of pressing two keys at once and:

/
d
a
n
c
e

Because ArenaNet partnered with Ideazon to produce the Guild Wars: Factions Zboard with emote keys. Emote keys are *gasp* macros!

My conclusion is the opposite of yours: executing 2 commands with one keystroke is simply user customization of controls, and likely falls into that gray area. Most humans can press two keys at nearly the same time. I have used a macro for ";" + "space" to pick up my drops. Ban me, please.

edit: Not responsible for any consequence as a result of following my example. Do it at our own risk, insert disclaimer here.

Sir Baddock · Apr 09, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Please explain the difference between your example of pressing two keys at once and:

/
d
a
n
c
e

Because ArenaNet partnered with Ideazon to produce the Guild Wars: Factions Zboard with emote keys. Emote keys are *gasp* macros!

My conclusion is the opposite of yours: executing 2 commands with one keystroke is simply user customization of controls, and likely falls into that gray area. Most humans can press two keys at nearly the same time. I have used a macro for ";" + "space" to pick up my drops. Ban me, please.

edit: Not responsible for any consequence as a result of following my example. Do it at our own risk, insert disclaimer here.

Being able to press a single key for dance doesn't exactly present any advantage when Farming or Fighting, while being able to Pick up and Drop kegs by the press of a single button does give you an advantage of only pressing ONE button, sure you can dance at the monsters but they'll just kill you.

The Logitech G15 can also be set to do a simple command (like push 2 buttons at once) and then set to "toggle" so you now have a person who only pushes a button once (instead of 25 times, 50 times if you use 2 buttons), sits back watches 20 - 25 kegs drop, toggles it off and that's about it.

Quote:

or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive

the /dance key is SUPPORTED by NCSoft / ArenaNet while the Logitech G15's macro buttons are not, it all falls down to a companies stance on certain products.

Vulkanyaz · Apr 10, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Baddock

Forgot to add something, using a Logitech G15's macro keys to press two buttons at once (Such as Space + , or Space + F1) clearly is an advantage as you're only pressing one button while other players need to push two.

So is having a better internet connection that another player, having lower latency that another player, having better hardware than another player, having a faster Windows/other installation than another player, having more coffee than another player, etc.

Sir Baddock · Apr 10, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulkanyaz

So is having a better internet connection that another player, having lower latency that another player, having better hardware than another player, having a faster Windows/other installation than another player, having more coffee than another player, etc.

*sigh* Trolls on GWG, who would have thought.

</endposting>

Boneyard Spleeneater · Apr 10, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Anyone here played Nightfall?

The Tihark Orchard Mission has a portion that requires you to match emotes at a rapid pace. Touch typing, or more importantly, bound emotes, give you a distinct advantage.

So even binding emotes can give you a gameplay advantage. That doesn't include holiday quests (Elder Nofunn). Banned.

Grey areas are unacceptable. Anet needs to explicitly state what is not allowed. Everything else needs to be. If something is being abused, they need to add it to the 'not allowed' list, give everyone a week to comply, then ban them.

Short scripts that combine a few commands or keystrokes are no more of an advantage than VoIP or a Mouse with extra keys. Or even some poor sod who is unemployed and has hours to bone up on his PVP skillz.

Some people could have the fastest machine with a G15 and a G5 Mouse and a T3 connection with no lag and still suck. Others could play GW on a solar powered 4 function calculator and pwn everyone.

Such is life.